October 6, 2024
Editor’s Note:
Mousa Abu Marzouk is a Palestinian politician and senior member of Hamas who
served as the first chairman of the Hamas Political Bureau from 1992 until
1996, and deputy chairman of the Hamas Political Bureau from January 1997 until
April 2013, where he was succeeded by the late Ismail Haniyeh. Abu Marzouk has
been a key figure in Palestinian politics and within the Hamas movement for
decades, and continues to play a central role in the group’s politburo.
Palestinians breaking down the border fence with Israel from Khan Yunis
in the southern Gaza Strip on October 7, 2023. (Photo: Stringer/APA
Images)
The following
interview was conducted via email between September 27 and October 3, 2024. The
questions and answers are copied below exactly as they were written, except for
minor typographical corrections.
Mondoweiss
Editors: Let’s start with the basics: What is the Hamas movement? How did you
join it?
Mousa Abu
Marzouk: The Islamic Resistance Movement “Hamas” is an Islamic Palestinian
national liberation movement, whose goal is to liberate Palestine and confront
the Zionist project. Its reference point is Islam in its premises, goals, and
means.
We were a group
that managed the Palestinian work of the Muslim Brotherhood headed by Dr.
Khairi Al-Agha, and I was his deputy. This group was in different countries in
the Gulf, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Europe, and South America, and I was the
official in the United States. When the Intifada began in 1987, the Gaza
leadership added work in the national framework to the educational reform work
and led the Palestinian Intifada under a new name, the Islamic Resistance
Movement Hamas. So did the leadership of Palestinian work outside Palestine and
perhaps at the same time, with harmony and harmony, as did the West Bank
leadership. So my brothers consider me among the founders of the movement and
the Islamic Resistance Movement.
How is the Hamas
of today different from when you joined? What is Hamas’s message to the world
today?
Before its
launch, Hamas was a group of Palestinians working within an educational,
reformist, charitable, and relief organization, and did not participate with
the national action factions in their resistance efforts, or their political
work. This was for objective reasons, the most important of which was the
difficulty of maintaining a presence in Palestine which was in a stage of
construction and growth, and abroad due to dispersion among Palestine, Syria,
and Lebanon. The work between Palestine and Jordan was handled by the Muslim
Brotherhood in Jordan, but when the Palestinian Intifada began, Hamas bore its
burden with the various Palestinian factions, although all worked in the name
of the unified leadership of the PLO, and Hamas worked under the leadership of
the PLO.
Hamas’ message
to the world is that we seek freedom for our people, and we seek to liberate
our land that was usurped from us by force and by international resolutions,
and from which our people were expelled. We want to return to our land and our
property. We only want justice and freedom. We know the citizens of the powers
and goals of the Western countries and their dominance over international
politics, especially the United States, and the extent of their support for our
Zionist enemy sitting on our land and occupying all of our land, and therefore
we agreed to the national vision adopted by the Palestine Liberation
Organization, with an independent Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza
Strip and Jerusalem as the capital of this state with the right of return. We
seek with all the national community to liberate from occupation and establish
this Palestinian state, and we call on the world that has ordered us with this
right to help us achieve it and we consider that this goal can only be achieved
by resistance and forcing Israel to leave.
Could you
describe to us what the “Al-Aqsa Flood” Operation that Hamas launched on
October 7 was? What was its purpose, and do you think Hamas was successful in
what it aimed to achieve?
Operation
Al-Aqsa Flood is a purely military operation carried out by a military group
from the Al-Qassam Brigades, consisting of an estimated 1,200 elite soldiers.
Their objective is to confront the Gaza Division, which has been stationed
around the perimeter of the Gaza Strip, imposing a strict siege since
2007. Hamas has called for the
participation of the resistance in the West Bank, abroad, and from countries in
the Axis of Resistance to achieve several key goals:
1. Establishing an
independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital.
2. Protecting
Jerusalem and its holy sites from being Judaized or destroyed.
3. Liberating our
prisoners from Israeli occupation prisons.
4. Breaking the
siege on Gaza.
5. Ensuring that
our people live freely and with dignity, determining their own future through
elections in which they can choose their leadership and destiny.
But the surprise
that Hamas leadership did not anticipate was that the Gaza division of the
Israeli army collapsed within a few hours, despite their possession of the most
advanced weapons, including tanks, armored vehicles, aircraft, electronic
devices, and espionage capabilities. They collapsed within hours, while we only
had modest light weapons and dilapidated transport vehicles. However, we had
strong men, training, high morale, a just cause, violated rights, missing
freedom, and a desire to push back the oppression. This led to chaos we did not
expect, entering the settlements and going further, reaching Sderot Rahat, and
a radius of 40 kilometers away from the Gaza Strip. This chaos caused many
people and factions to cross the separation line and capture both civilians and
military personnel, as you have seen. Some even began carrying possessions from
the settlements. In truth, all this chaos was the result of the Gaza division’s
rapid collapse, something that Hamas did not expect.
As for the
objectives that were achieved, they were far more than we anticipated, and here
are some of them:
1. The Palestinian
cause returned to the forefront, and the entire world became aware of our cause
and our rightful demands for a state, freedom, and a future.
2. The whole world
came to realize the true nature of Israel—its barbarism and its goal to
exterminate Palestinian people—and its aggressive ambitions. This led to
resolutions from the United Nations General Assembly, the International Court
of Justice, and the International Criminal Court, along with global
condemnation against Israel.
In an October
13, 2023 interview with the New Yorker, you said that on October 7 you were
just as surprised as everyone else by the Al-Aqsa Flood Operation, and you said
that you were taken aback by its military success. On October 7, as the events
were still unfolding, what was your initial prediction of the nature of the
Israeli response? Did your predictions on that day differ from what actually
happened in the subsequent months?
The October 7th
operation halted Israel’s project of regional dominance after it was shattered
by just a few hundred Al-Qassam fighters. Israel can no longer claim that it
protects the region and the Gulf against Iran, and thus all efforts to
integrate it into the region have failed as a result of this operation.
As for the goals
set by Hamas, they have been solidified on the ground, and the national project
is now closer to realization, while the Zionist project is further from
execution, despite the balance of power and the American support for Israel.
Yes, Israel was taken by surprise by the Al-Aqsa Flood operation, which was
planned and executed by the Al-Qassam Brigades without the involvement of the
political leadership. As I mentioned before, the real surprise was in the
fragility of the Gaza Division and the inability of the Israeli army to address
the weakness and rapid collapse of the division, followed by chaos that
terrified the Israelis and sparked existential fears. This led to an irrational
Israeli response, going beyond all bounds, as they sought to annihilate and
displace the Palestinian people, by any means, beyond the borders of historic
Palestine, whether to Sinai or elsewhere.
As for whether
my predictions on that day differed from what happened in the following months,
the truth is I did expect such an Israeli response, given my understanding of
the Zionist background and the fanatic Jewish mentality. I have read the Old
Testament several times and studied the history of the Zionist movement, though
I did not expect the U.S. to be so brutal in supplying Israel with the lethal
weapons that kill in this manner and to protect them in all international
forums. While I know American society well, politicians are something else
entirely.
Did you have
greater expectations for the West Bank and its participation in the Al-Aqsa
Flood moment? Were you hopeful for a more widespread uprising in the West Bank
in support of Gaza?
Yes, I did
expect greater participation from the West Bank, but there are two reasons that
prevented this. First, the policies of
Mahmoud Abbas and his corrupt authority, and second, the settlers’ aggression,
their plans, and the protection they receive from the army. However, we still
expect much more in the future.
After a year of
genocidal Israeli war against the Palestinian people, many Palestinians who
support the resistance think that Gaza should not be expected to continue to
bear the cost of resistance alone. How do you respond to this?
This is true,
but Palestinians in other regions must take responsibility because Palestinians
have no option but to resist the Zionist project to achieve their goals of
establishing an independent Palestinian state with Jerusalem as its capital.
What is the
future of the resistance after the genocide? Gaza has been decimated and many
expect that its role in resistance will be deeply curtailed in the coming
years. The West Bank is witnessing rampant settlement expansion alongside a
brutal military campaign against armed resistance groups in the northern West
Bank, while the Palestinian Authority continues to serve as a subcontractor for
the occupation.
So what
potential is there for Palestinians to advance their liberation struggle with
all of these internal constraints?
Your description
is accurate but look back a hundred years. After every setback for the national
movement and resistance, the people produced new elements to confront the
Zionist movement. After the 1927 revolution came the 1936 revolution.
Thirty-six years later, there was the 1947 war, followed by the fedayeen
operations, then the formation of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO)
and the Palestinian Liberation Army. After 1984 and PLO’s exit from Lebanon,
the First Intifada started in 1987, then the second in 2000, followed by wars
in 2008, 2012, 2014, and 2021. The Palestinian people are ready to pay the
price, even sacrificing their children to defend their religion and homeland.
Almost one year
into the genocide, we have seen a failure on the part of the international
community to stop the war and the killing of innocent civilians. Meanwhile,
Palestinians have criticized the response of Arab countries and leaders for not
doing enough to stop the bloodshed.
What do you make
of the response of the International community and Arab leaders? What were your
expectations, and how have they measured up to reality?
You must
understand that U.S. policy is responsible for all this in the Middle East. It
adopts Israeli policies, even if they contradict the American administration’s
directions. It supplies them with all types of weapons and protects them in the
UN and other international forums.
The countries in
the region are divided into two categories: one possesses wealth and money, but
that money is kept in American banks, allowing the U.S. to control these
countries. The second group depends on international aid, which is also
controlled by the U.S. Hence, the response of the region’s governments aligns
with the U.S. will.
Additionally,
other countries in the world do not want to confront the U.S. As for Europe, it
is complicit with the U.S. in all these crimes. The countries outside of U.S.
influence, such as Russia, China, South Africa, and Iran, have performed well
on the international and legal levels. We are grateful to these countries, and
the Palestinian people appreciate their efforts and thank them for their
positions.
Back in July, in
the midst of the genocide, Hamas and Fatah signed a unity agreement in Beijing.
You were there for the ceremony, and in your speech, you said, “We are
committed to national unity.” When the agreement was signed, many Palestinians
reacted the same way they have to other reconciliation talks and agreements
over the past two decades that have ultimately led nowhere: with skepticism and
bated breath. Many people viewed it as largely symbolic.
Aside from the
agreement in Beijing, what is being done between Hamas, Fatah, and other
Palestinian political parties to achieve national unity and a path forward for
Palestinians? And what strategic role do you see reconciliation playing in the
midst of this genocide?
The Palestinian
people are facing a way of extermination, and every living being in Gaza is a
target for the Israeli army. The army has destroyed all signs of life,
including educational institutions, the health system, and more. In the West
Bank, Palestinian land is being stolen, and settlements are expanding like a
malignant cancer. The occupation authorities are tightening their grip on our
people in the 1948 territories, aiming to displace them. Therefore, we see that
unity is a prerequisite for victory, and its absence is a weakness within the
Palestinian body. This is why we have been working for years to mend the
divide. Our strategy is based on unity, and we have made concessions, reaching
several agreements. However, two parties have consistently drawn a red line on
unity and caused its failure: the U.S. administration and the Israeli
occupation.
Beijing has been
keen to help the Palestinian people, and we signed the Beijing Declaration. We
are working with Palestinian factions to implement it, but the U.S.
administration and the Israeli occupation are obstructing its implementation
and threatening Fatah and the Palestinian Authority.
What should be
the goal of the international solidarity movement for Palestine? Is the
objective of calling for a ceasefire still meaningful given that most of Gaza
has been destroyed, or should the solidarity movement’s demands shift?
We extend our
appreciation to the international solidarity movement with Palestine for their
humanity and their efforts in confronting war criminals, despite the daily
pressures they face. The situation even reached the point where American pilot
Aaron Bushnell set himself on fire in protest against Israel’s genocide and the
Biden administration’s stance on the war. We, along with our people, are deeply
grateful to him and his family, as well as to all the free individuals standing
in solidarity with our cause.
Stopping the
genocide is a central goal, and efforts must continue in this direction. The
Israeli occupation army commits massacres daily, without a single day of pause,
making this the current priority. Additionally, it is imperative to work on
breaking the siege imposed on the people, as hundreds of thousands are
homeless, winter is approaching, and there is no clean water, electricity, or
any semblance of normal life. Therefore, breaking the siege to allow the entry
of essential supplies for the residents of Gaza is crucial. Furthermore,
Israeli war criminals must be pursued so they do not escape justice, as they
are pushing the Middle East and the world towards a third world war that will
harm every human being on the planet. Stopping them is in all our interests.
In his speech to
the UN General Assembly this week, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu
called on Hamas to surrender and vowed to continue its genocidal assault on
Gaza until Israel achieves “total victory.” What is your response to this?
Netanyahu wants
Hamas to surrender, but we are a resistance movement defending our people, and
we will not surrender. We will continue our resistance. Even if we assume Hamas
surrenders, the enemy will continue the genocide because its problem is with the
Palestinian people, not with Hamas. Look at what they are doing in Jerusalem
and the West Bank, areas where Hamas does not have a strong presence, yet
hundreds have been killed.
As for the
agreement, we agreed, but Netanyahu continues to sabotage it. The mediators
have witnessed that Hamas’s position is sound, and the problem lies with the
Israeli occupation.
What are Hamas’s
plans for the next few years in Gaza? What are Hamas’s political objectives for
the “Day After” in Gaza, both if a ceasefire agreement is reached and if an
agreement is not reached?
Hamas is an
integral part of the Palestinian people. It won by a landslide in the last free
elections. We are committed to achieving the Palestinian people’s goals of
freedom, returning to their occupied lands, and ending the Israeli occupation.
This goal remains central to Hamas until it is achieved.
For the day
after, Hamas will work with all Palestinian political components to form a
national unity technocratic government, non-factional, with the primary goal of
providing relief to the people, addressing the aftermath of the war, and
rebuilding the devastated sector for a limited period. It will then prepare for
the Palestinian elections, and everyone must respect the results of these
elections.
Meanwhile, we
will work diligently to address the war’s effects. There are tens of thousands
of orphans, thousands who have lost limbs, and hundreds of thousands without
homes or shelter, in addition to the other tragedies our people are
experiencing. Certainly, there is a central role for the world in helping to
overcome this humanitarian disaster. We are people who have been under
aggression since 1948 without any fault except for their greed for our land.
The U.S. has
publicly supported Israel’s stated aim of destroying Hamas and maintains its
position that Hamas is a terrorist organization. Do you think there is a future
for Hamas to be accepted as a political actor and as part of the leadership of
the Palestinian people? And how much have the events of the past year
influenced that possibility?
Hamas remains,
and the Israeli occupation army failed to eliminate the movement. However, it
exploited the goal of eliminating Hamas to kill civilians and destroy Gaza. We
view the U.S. administration as a key partner in the war on our people. Biden
personally led the war council, and Blinken formed a political protection wall
for Netanyahu, pushing to prevent food and water from reaching Gaza’s people.
Additionally, the bombs falling on the heads of children, women, and the
elderly are American-made.
What matters to
us is the acceptance of the Palestinian people. We derive our legitimacy from
the Palestinian people, not from the U.S. administration or external parties.
We defend our people for their independence, freedom, and dignity, so they are
not beholden to anyone.
As we speak,
Israel’s bombardment on Lebanon continues, and the death toll there is
climbing. Despite what is at stake for Hezbollah and Lebanon, the “support
front” has vowed to continue its fight with Israel until the genocide is over.
Meanwhile, other groups like Ansar Allah in Yemen have used their modest
military capabilities and their own means to put pressure on Israel to stop the
killing.
Do you think
that Hezbollah and the broader “axis of resistance” has done everything it
could to support Palestinians? Or do you think they could have done more
earlier on in the genocide?
We have been,
and continue to be, subjected to a genocide by a group whose ancestors were
subjected to genocide by Europeans, especially Germans, in World War II. This
is deeply ironic because our people did not harm them. Those who were victims
of genocide should stand against it, not practice it on the weak.
In this war, we
thank everyone who has stood with us, regardless of the level. The support
fronts have taken a heroic stance in confronting the occupation and defending
the Palestinian people. Today, Lebanon is also under attack because of its
humanitarian and moral stance.
The discussion
should not be about whether the support fronts could have done more, but rather
about those who watch the genocide of our people and either remain silent or
participate. They are the ones who should review their humanity and values,
knowing that Israel’s evil will eventually reach them all.
Many have
speculated that Iran and the “axis of resistance,” who say they did not know
about Operation Al-Aqsa Flood, were not happy about the timing of the October 7
attack because the “axis” was not ready to get into this fight. This seems to
be the case given that Hezbollah’s “support front” has been comparatively
restrained, indicating that Hasan Nasrallah [did] not want to invite wider
destruction to Lebanon.
Why did Hamas
pick its operation to happen now? Was the Al-Aqsa Flood operation a way of
forcing the “axis of resistance” to commit to the Palestinian cause more fully?
The Al-Aqsa
Flood Operation is linked to the Palestinian cause and is a self-made decision
by the Palestinian resistance. It is not directed at anyone but the Israeli
occupation.
We see before
our eyes the extremist Israeli government adopting a policy of resolving the
conflict. We feared for the liquidation of the Palestinian cause as settlements
spread rapidly, Israel changes the status quo in Jerusalem, and it wants
control over the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Christian and Islamic holy sites in the
city. The tight siege on Gaza has lasted for more than 17 years, and there are
many thousands of prisoners in enemy prisons, some of whom have been detained
for over 40 years. Normalization has begun to reach central countries in the
region, which is why we acted to change this reality by targeting the military
brigade of the army that imposes the siege on Gaza.
What can the
past year tell us about the future of Palestine and the broader region? Where
do we go from here? Where does Gaza go from here?
We are in a
significant historical phase, and today, history is being made. What came
before October 7 will not remain the same after it. This is a time of painful
birth and major transformation, and these changes will not remain confined to
Palestine but will extend to the region and even the global system.
This is an
opportunity for every individual and force to have a place in these
transformations and be remembered by history for being on the right side—on the
side of oppressed peoples.
Do you have a
message for the international community and for the supporters of Palestinian
liberation around the globe?
My message to
the international community is that one of the motivations behind the Al-Aqsa
Flood Operation was the international community’s failure to prevent the
occupation from liquidating the Palestinian cause. Our position has been
validated because the international community has watched our extermination for
a year and has done nothing practical or effective to prevent it. After a year
of genocide, we still see Netanyahu speaking at the UN. Therefore, we say that
your silence on Netanyahu will create others like him among you, and when that
happens the suffering will reach everyone. There is still time for you to take
humane and ethical positions that are in your interest as much as they are in
ours.
To the free
people supporting the liberation of Palestine, the Palestinian people are
watching your actions, and we see that you pose a real threat to the
occupation. Continue your struggle, continue exposing the occupation,
highlighting its crimes, and putting pressure on it and its supporters. Make
them outcasts wherever they go, and sever the ties between your governments and
the Israeli government. Ensure that your activism becomes more effective
because the children of Palestine need your action.
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